Whiting Wongs self describes as “An honest conversation about race and writing between two people who think very highly of themselves. Dan Harmon and Jessica Gao know they won’t solve racism in Hollywood, but they still like to talk about it. Sometimes with guests!”
That combination of race and writing, specifically writing for serial television, is only part of what makes this podcast stand out among the many others about race. Harmon is about my age and the showrunner behind Rick and Morty and Community, two shows I have heard of but never seen. For those of us who have never heard the term showrunner a showrunner is the person who has complete creative power and managerial responsibility for a television show. Jessica Gao is a writer on Rick and Morty.
Although the descriptor specifies race and writing, the discussion wanders through all sorts of minority representation in the television industry on the whole, including gender representation. Which is doubly interesting because Harmon is also famous for being called out in the #MeToo movement. I say famous rather than infamous because he owned his toxic behavior and delivered one of the few, perhaps only, true apologies that the movement has seen. The apology also illustrates that we can have productive discussions about the insidious problem of sexual harassment in the workplace.
So, I guess it’s no surprise that Gao and Harmon approach the conversation about the sticky subject of minority representation in the American film and television industry with maturity although not without emotion. Harmon speaks as a white, straight man of middle age in a powerful position in his industry. While Gao speaks from the perspective of a younger, up and coming writer who is a straight, Asian woman. It is interesting to watch Harmon struggle and the show is nothing if not a clear illustration of how much minorities in the US have to understand the White Supremacist Patriarchy and how little beneficiaries of the White Supremacist Patriarchy have to understand anyone and anything outside of it.
The fact that Gao is a Chinese American child of immigrants comes up often. This is perhaps the only peeve I have with the show. Many of the guests they have on and, if I remember correctly, all of the Asian guests are the children of immigrants or immigrated themselves as children. There is a unique difficulty to living a life in two, or more, worlds. As an expat I get this in a way I might not have otherwise and though I am envious of those who are fluent in multiple languages and/or cultures I get that it can also add layers of complexity and, yes, struggle to a person’s life.
But something that minorities, particularly Asian minorities, wrestle with is being constantly othered. The question “But where are you really from?” on constant repetition. Posed to an immigrant or the child of immigrants, someone who is straddling two or more worlds, whose English may even by flavored with another tongue, this question gains validity. Focusing so heavily on immigrant stories underscores the idea of minority otherness in America when there was a Black man on the boat with Columbus when he discovered the already inhabited land of the Americas, the oldest city in the continental US was started by the Spanish, and Asians have been in the US for literally hundreds of years.
In an early episode Gao speaks of the disappointment of creating the character Dr. Wong specifically to be cast by an Asian actor only to see the character voiced by Susan Sarandon. Gao goes on to say, “They’re cartoon characters, they’re drawn, you can make them look however you want. So it feels like it’s arbitrary, who the voice is behind it. And I think that none of this would really be an issue at all if there were more actors of color who get work. But because in every aspect of acting, white actors dominate and there are so few roles for actors of color, that that’s why it’s an issue. It wouldn’t be an issue if there were plenty of roles for everyone. But there aren’t.” As BoJack Horseman creator Raphael Bob-Waksberg said, “Part of the issue is, when it comes to animation you convince yourself, anybody can play anything, so it doesn’t matter. Will Arnett is not a horse, but he plays a horse. This is what acting is. But I think if you are saying that, and if you are then casting all white people in your main cast, as I did, it betrays that. It’s more of an excuse than a truth.”
The argument on hiring for diversity and inclusivity versus based on merit is a recurring one on the show. An oft repeated quote from Jessica Gao states:
“The people who say that have never ever thought about what that actually means and where that meritocracy comes from. Overwhelmingly, the person who is deciding who is the funniest is going to be a white guy, usually in his 30s or 40s who for sure grew up middle class or upper middle class. Someone like that is going to have very specific life experience and a specific sense of humor.”
What both of these ideas have in common is they would not be issues if there was already diversity in the industry, particularly in the upper levels. What the podcast illustrates over and over again is that if there were women, if there were Black, gay, Asian, Latino, Native, disabled, people of varying socioeconomic status, ethnic, and cultural backgrounds in any given room through all levels of any industry meritocracy would come more naturally and it would matter less who the voice behind any particular character is. If we had diversity we wouldn’t have to worry as much about who is represented and the stories we tell. But we don’t have diversity. Without diversity we cannot have a meritocracy because those in charge are always biased to those similar to themselves.
There are countless other topics from in depth looks at how a tv writers room can work, arguments over whether it is good to have race neutral characters or even if race neutral is even a thing, and so much more. All of this can get pretty heavy. What makes Whiting Wongs so addictive is the chemistry between Gao and Harmon and the levity they bring to the subject matter while still respecting the weight of it. I don’t know if it’s a just a shtick but quite often Harmon shows up to gigs a bit lit and both purport to indulge in beverages of an alcoholic nature during tapings. This can lead to some hilarious segues including a multi-episode discussion on dolphins versus sharks.
I listened to an episode of this show almost every day and am genuinely disappointed that they are now on what I hope to be a break and not an end to the podcast. This is a particularly great podcast for white people who only know other white people or are uncomfortable with the topic of race. You’ll probably have to sit with your discomfort but Harmon will make you feel like you aren’t sitting alone.
Sources
https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/2/16598514/rick-morty-podcast-dan-harmon-jessica-gao-white-wongs
https://www.themarysue.com/dan-harmon-jessica-gao-harassment/
https://www.indiewire.com/2018/01/rick-and-morty-bojack-horseman-the-simpsons-producers-cartoon-whitewashing-1201921109/